Richard Turner, the subject of Dealt, is remarkably talented at card tricks, not to mention a fifth-degree black belt in karate – who also happens to be blind. US documentary-makers Luke Korem [director], Bradley Jackson [writer, co-producer] and Russell Wayne Groves [producer] traveled to the NZ International Film Festival with their doco, and joined us for a chat about Turner.
FLICKS: There’s a fascinating character at the center of your film. How much did you know about him before the idea to make a documentary came about?
BRADLEY JACKSON: I always thought Luke was a very put-together, very well-composed guy, because we’d made another film together. But then he started telling me about his childhood, growing up, traveling around, performing magic with his dad. He doesn’t seem like a guy that would just be up there, just, “Magic!” We had just finished our first film when I heard about the idea – I was like, “This could be something interesting”.
There are so many inspirational moments in his life that it almost feels at times stink watching it. Like, “Oh, I’ve never done anything that in my life!” Is that a danger when you’ve got such a big positive story to tell?
KOREM: It was definitely inspiring every day, being around Richard. He always pushes you, he’s constantly shuffling and practicing and working out. We’d go on the road filming him and he’d be like, “you working out this morning with me?” at 6:00 AM or whatever. So he definitely pushes you in that way, and for us I think it was like, “How do we capture this guy’s fascinating story the best we can?” because it is such a big story. “Big Fish” is what we like to say. It’s almost too good to be actually true. And so that’s one of the things that really pushed us to keep working on it to make it the best that we could.
As we see in the film, he’s really sensitive about his blindness and particularly how other people will bring it up. Did that make the film a delicate balancing act?
KOREM: In the beginning, I don’t think we knew that that was going to be the case. We’d seen little glimmers here and there, he never mentioned he was blind when he would perform in his normal magic show. We always thought, “Oh, that’s interesting,” and then as we get to talk to him, he would say certain things about like, “I don’t want to be called blind,” never caring. Obviously, we observed things like never carrying a stick, never having to see at all, not using braille. But I think over time, we picked up that there was a much bigger element.
JACKSON: When we interviewed his sister, who also lost her sight a year after him, then we saw the parallels. I like to say it’s kind of like dating. When you first get to know someone, or you start dating someone, you only learn the high-level, the things they want you to know about them. When we first met Richard, it was like he’s performing for us all the time, we were so captivated by how amazing he was, and, “Oh, it’s amazing!” and he doesn’t want anyone to know he’s blind, which is a good thing. But then you see the other side of it where it’s like with his family and the conflicts that arise. And so it was a three-year process of filming and getting to know him and really uncovering the other part of the story.
RUSSELL WAYNE GROVES: It’s also pulling back the veil on his pride. Because he is a very prideful man, but at the end of the day, it’s because of that that he’s so talented. So it’s kind of an interesting play. It goes both ways.
Was it a challenge for you to find the right way to put the viewer inside his world? It’s inherently something quite difficult to show, right? Someone’s lack of sight?
KOREM: That’s a really good point. When the film flashes back at times to his past, there’s a scene where he describes looking at the chalkboard. What I found was really awesome, is that the people that did our visual effects, the guy that was the head of that, he’s partially blind in one eye. And so he brought his visual to it. He was like, “Well, actually, I think it should be a little bit smeared on the edges”, and we would call Richard up, like “What was it like?” and he remembers it just like it was yesterday. So it was actually using him along with our visual effects guy, together, to be able to try to put you into that world, though no one can actually do that fully. But I think also Richard being in a black, voided backdrop when he’s doing his interview, whereas everyone else is in a normal setting, reminds you of what that’s like.
JACKSON: I do love how his wife, who’s been married to him for 20-some odd years, says “I don’t know, it must be hard to be blind.” And then Richard also says, “I think people see it as the worst disability you could have.” People would rather not be blind than almost any other disability because you’re afraid of the darkness. So to me, that was kind of an interesting theme to play with as well.
Why do you think people are still so fascinated in cards and card tricks?
JACKSON: Magic has been around forever.
KOREM: It knows no language. It’s universal. So that’s what’s fascinating about it to a lot of people.
JACKSON: People want to believe in something more. They want to believe in magic. People love being tricked. I’ve got a bunch of nieces and nephews and they love to be fooled. Cover their eyes, they’re like, it makes them disappear. They love that. I think that’s just something that, for me, you love to see. It’s an innately human thing. And so the first time I saw Richard perform, I could not believe what I was seeing. And every time I’ve watched him, we’ve watched him several hundreds of times. And every time, I’m blown away. I’m like, “How did he do that?” And I also get nervous for him now, too, because I know his routine, so I’m like, “I know this one’s hard. This is a tough one. Sometimes he messes it up.”
KOREM: Anxiety by proxy.
JACKSON: You want him to do well. Nobody goes to see a magic show and goes, “Aw, man. I hope this sucks. I hope the magician’s awful.”
For someone that puts grins on people’s faces or leaves mouths agape, it’s sad to think that Richard doesn’t get to actually bask in that audience reaction.
KOREM: Well he does, though. It’s something that we also want people to realize when you watch the film is just because you don’t see with your eyes doesn’t mean you don’t see. You see in a different way. And that is true. There’s been several times, for instance, where sometimes I would go by myself and film at his house. Just fly on the wall, hopefully to kind of forget I’m there. And I remember at one time I walked in, and I just wasn’t really having a good day. And instantly, he knew that. He goes, “Luke, are you doing okay today? Is everything okay?” Like he could just tell, I don’t know if it was my tone of my voice, or what. But he senses that. So in a room, he says he feeds off the energy.
JACKSON: He can also literally suck people’s gasps out of them. People are just blown away. And I think that that also feeds to him. He truly loves that. And people approach him after a show, and they don’t even know how to interact because they’re so excited to ask him so many different questions and “how is he doing this kind of stuff?” It’s fascinating.
So, how much time do you need to dedicate to making a documentary that’s essentially about a single subject?
JACKSON: A lot [laughs].
How much time do you have to spend with him while the cameras are rolling? What was the duration and intensity of the process?
KOREM: Well, this one was a three-and-a-half year project. We could have finished it in about a year and a half had it been all historical. But Richard is only 59, now 60, years old, so there’s a whole lot of his life left. So a lot of the film is today and you never know what’s going to happen tomorrow. Therefore, we didn’t have a script. We didn’t know where the movie would end. We didn’t know what chapter was next, necessarily. So I could say we still could be making this film. There is no duration. You just have to figure out when you stop. What’s the best portrait you can give of that person because you’re not going to tell that person’s whole life story. You’re just going to give a little snapshot.
You described Richard as prideful before. So it makes me curious what he thinks of the finished film.
GROVES: I think he’s very, very proud of it, to be honest. Luke said it in an interview recently, he probably took a beat to truly accept what we had to showcase because I don’t think that he knew we were going to take this story in that complete direction. We didn’t pull any punches. You’ve seen the movie but there are some difficult things in it that are hard to grasp. But I think that in general he understands that that’s what made the best version of the film, was to truly get in there and say, “Okay, there is conflict in his life. There are people in his life that have to help him.” And he has to understand it’s not just a bunch of accolades. It’s not just a pat on the back. Life isn’t just that.
JACKSON: Well, his wife says in the movie, “Richard’s biggest weakness is that he does not want to be seen as weak.” And this movie shows him as weak, but in showing somebody as weak, you show them as human. Because the first 20 minutes is just nonstop, “He’s awesome. He’s amazing. He’s a superhero.”
GROVES: We can’t keep that up [laughs].
JACKSON: Batman is only interesting because his parents died and he has all these things going on with him. That’s why I think Superman is the most boring comic book character because he doesn’t really have any weaknesses. But seeing Richard’s weaknesses, I think, is what made us realize this movie is more than just a facet and portrait of a guy with cool skills. It’s a fascinating portrait of a guy with great emotion and great heart.
GROVES: And there are so many other factors to his life. It’s not just him. He has his son, his wife and his sister. And all of these people that are around him that are great support people, that they’re also willing to call him out on certain things. And I think that that’s a very lovely beautiful little thing that a lot of people don’t take the time necessary to realise sometimes.
If you absolutely had to, would you guys individually feel confident about having a fight with him?
JACKSON: Would I fight Richard Turner?!
Yeah. If it was absolutely unavoidable, would you be confident?
KOREM: No [laughs], I would not be confident.
JACKSON: He punched me in the stomach on accident once [laughs]. He was trying to showcase how to punch, and he was like, “Bro, get close to me.” And I was like, “I don’t trust you.” And he was like, “Oh, I’m not going to hit you.” And I’m like, “You’re blind. You might hit me. There’s a good chance.” And then he hit me and it hurt really bad. I think maybe you could get one or two pops in. The second he made contact with you just by knowing where you were, you’re done.
GROVES: Don’t mess with the bull, it’s not even worth it [laughs].
‘Dealt’ plays at the NZ International Film Festival
